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  #31  
Old 2011-11-03, 12:24pm
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Are you still using the devardi warmer as an kiln? Could that be part of the reason you are getting devit?
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  #32  
Old 2011-11-03, 12:44pm
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Yes and who knows.

If after my next two tests I'm still getting the ick I'm going to ask for a refund and put the money towards a kiln.

(I don't use the word "devit" anymore in this thread 'cause people insist that "devit" only happens in the flame, despite the actual definition of the word "devitrify". )

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Originally Posted by Polgarra View Post
Are you still using the devardi warmer as an kiln? Could that be part of the reason you are getting devit?
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  #33  
Old 2011-11-03, 12:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyssa View Post
Yes and who knows.

If after my next two tests I'm still getting the ick I'm going to ask for a refund and put the money towards a kiln.

(I don't use the word "devit" anymore in this thread 'cause people insist that "devit" only happens in the flame, despite the actual definition of the word "devitrify". )
I have no idea if the icky could be caused by the warmer but honestly I think it is something to seriously look at. Has anyone successfully used it to batch anneal? It seems like there should be a way to do it but maybe some of the materials are degassing or something similar. I don't believe it was designed to be an annealer so maybe there is some feature that has been overlooked that is making your beads icky.

I am so sorry that so many beads were ruined, that is just unbelievably frustrating.
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  #34  
Old 2011-11-03, 1:04pm
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The first three or four batches I annealed didn't get icky. That's the only way I know that it's (probably) not the annealer. And there just doesn't seem to be any reason for the annealer, an steel body with a glazed ceramic inner liner, to cause beads to lose their glassiness. Also, the beads I annealed straight out of the flame didn't get icky.

Anyway, I'm just grasping at straws here. I'll try my next two tests and see what happens.

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Originally Posted by Polgarra View Post
I have no idea if the icky could be caused by the warmer but honestly I think it is something to seriously look at. Has anyone successfully used it to batch anneal? It seems like there should be a way to do it but maybe some of the materials are degassing or something similar. I don't believe it was designed to be an annealer so maybe there is some feature that has been overlooked that is making your beads icky.

I am so sorry that so many beads were ruined, that is just unbelievably frustrating.
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  #35  
Old 2011-11-03, 1:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyssa View Post
but now I've ruined about half of all the hundreds of beads I've made over the last 6 months
That really sucks!

Maybe you should try etching the ruined beads and see if you can salvage them that way. I think you said you didn't like etched beads, but some people do, and it might at least be a good idea for the beads you can't sell otherwise.
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  #36  
Old 2011-11-03, 1:12pm
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Actually I do like etched beads, and if/when I've figured out what's causing the ick I will definitely give etching a try. Thank you for helping me remember there is a possibility of salvaging these beads.

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That really sucks!

Maybe you should try etching the ruined beads and see if you can salvage them that way. I think you said you didn't like etched beads, but some people do, and it might at least be a good idea for the beads you can't sell otherwise.
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  #37  
Old 2011-11-03, 1:42pm
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I don't know what to say... this is weird.. and YES the metal plate could be causing it too. IT could be a combo of the beads you are annealing at the same time too. The beads could be fuming each other. If there are colors that are known to cause some 'divit'/reduction do them separately maybe? It may still be the mandrels even though they are not on the bead anymore when you batch anneal, or maybe just something in the annealer itself that is causing it. The only sure way to tell would be to get some beads batch annealed somewhere else in a kiln.
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  #38  
Old 2011-11-03, 1:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyssa View Post
The first three or four batches I annealed didn't get icky. That's the only way I know that it's (probably) not the annealer. And there just doesn't seem to be any reason for the annealer, an steel body with a glazed ceramic inner liner, to cause beads to lose their glassiness. Also, the beads I annealed straight out of the flame didn't get icky.

Anyway, I'm just grasping at straws here. I'll try my next two tests and see what happens.
I'm still going to guess it is your mandrels. The more they are getting used the more likely they are giving off fumes. Also, the ones that went straight to annealing would probably be ok, because the mandrels are coated with bead release.
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  #39  
Old 2011-11-03, 1:55pm
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Could the fuming have left 'fumes' in the warmer so that now it affects the beads every time it is hot?
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  #40  
Old 2011-11-03, 2:01pm
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(edit sorry, i was rambling when you posted Jamey Lynn) i think it's the mandrels also, this recently happened to me

I normally make my own mandrels, but cleaning out a drawer I recently found a pack of 12 I bought somewhere so I used them.
They are not stainless, I'm thinking steel? Wish I'd have looked at them closer before I used them.
Anyways the beads made on these, they have this icky/devit to them. (annealed on mandrels)

Not all, only some. One for sure is CIM's Gelly, CIM Mojito (which got an odd milky haze)..so it's only some glass that was affected, oops i looked and one is dark ivory with some frit

I'm just going on a whim to say it's a metal in your mandrels as others mentioned, esp since it seems to be just the ends right? Sorry if I missed it but have you tried new stainless mandrels? Even if they are off in the kiln, maybe while in the torch some of the metals on your mandrels messed up the beads?

-later tonight i'll make quick beads with some of the glasses you mentioned on these odd mandrels i have and see if it happens again.
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  #41  
Old 2011-11-03, 4:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyssa View Post
Well, the terra cotta flower pot dish didn't work. All the colors that got icky in previous batches got icky in last night's batch. I have two more ideas to try, but now I've ruined about half of all the hundreds of beads I've made over the last 6 months and I have no more beads to batch anneal. I'm gonna make a handful of beads tonight then batch anneal them tomorrow changing yet another variable: there is a stainless steel metal plate in the bottom of the annealer that could be causing it. We'll see. Wish me luck.
Lyssa,

Gather up your next bunch when you get enough to want to send and I'll batch anneal them for you.
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  #42  
Old 2011-11-03, 4:52pm
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Thank you Lisi, I will do that. First I want to see if I can figure out what is WRONG with what I'm doing. This annealer should NOT be the culprit, there's just no reason for it, but if it is I want to narrow it down so I can honestly tell Devardi that the annealer didn't work right and I want my money back.

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Lyssa,

Gather up your next bunch when you get enough to want to send and I'll batch anneal them for you.
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  #43  
Old 2011-11-04, 12:46pm
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Ok, I've decided the annealer has to go back, but guess what! Last night I ramped the beads up in the annealer and flashed them through the flame and they came out SHINY! (I put the beads into vermiculite to cool, not back into the annealer.)

So, after a ton of wasted effort, time and electricity, it looks like I'll be able to recover the beads I thought were completely ruined. Obviously, any beads that have raised decorations on them, like flowers will probably be messed up, but that's only about 1/4 of the beads and I can probably fix them a bit while I have them in the flame.

Lisi, when I get done with all of this "un-devitrifying" I'll be sending you the mother of all batches to anneal. I figure I can send these beads to BOC and/or give them for Christmas presents.

Thank you everyone for all your suggestions and advice. Time to start putting my pennies away to save up for a kiln.
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  #44  
Old 2011-11-04, 4:48pm
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Glasshive has a payment schedule that you can get into to save for your kiln. It's a great idea too to ask for kiln $ in lou of gifts for Christmas too.
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  #45  
Old 2011-11-04, 8:28pm
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Okay, I will be ready! My kiln is 12" deep so there is plenty of room for all of those! I'll even clean the holes for you if they need it.
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  #46  
Old 2011-11-05, 1:15am
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Some info on devit from Contemporary Lampworking (hope its ok Bandhu! lol)

"Devitrification - Crystallization of glass. Glass which is heated incompletely or unevenly during working can turn foggy looking and dull on the surface because the glass has begun to crystallize. Chemical impurities on the surface of the glass can also cause devitrification. It can often be remedied by remelting the surface of the affected area and exercising caution not to bend, twist or otherwise stress it until the glass cools completely. Sometimes sprinkling table salt (NaCl) on the hot glass can reverse devitrification."

So the reason some people are picky about you calling it devit is they are not entirely sure it is your glass crystallizing or if it is just mud or mucky color coming from the metals in the glass leeching out to the surface.

The reason this may be important is that if it isn't devit but metal fume then I imagine that there might be different fixes and steps involved in tracking down the source of the problem, let alone figuring out which is which to begin with. No reason to go down a path thinking its one thing and have none of the fixes for that help as it would only cause more frustration for ya I imagine ;D.

You may try making sure (if you have not already) that your glass is nice and clean before working with it, wipe it down or even try to wash a stick and leave another as is and see if they both result in the same problem. As this as stated above can be a cause.

More from CL:

"Soaking too long at the upper and lower ends of the annealing temp range can cause problems. In some glasses, oversoaking at the strain point or the softening point can cause devitrification."

Note that the following was discussing pyrex, don't know if it will work with other glass...

"...This frost surface can be reversed by using one of the following procedures. First fill a salt shaker with pure sea salt, ground frit, or sodium perborate. Using a bushy fire to heat up the piece of glassware, slowly sprinkle the contents of the shaker into the bushy flame, allowing the flame to carry the contents onto your hot glass piece. You will notice in a few moments that your devitrification will slowly but surely disappear."

That should be good for cold-worked or over worked cloudy glass that when put back in the flame doesn't seem to shine up. Though we are talking beads here, I had accidentally left a bunch of pieces in a kiln one time and came back to a slump, I caught them half way and killed the kilns temp, and by the time they were cool enough to come out they were nice and frosty with devit. Had to take out the pieces which were now thick slugs (still functional) instead of spoons. I didn't know this trick so I just used a nice oxy pin type flame to even them out. But I have had issues in the past of overworking straight cobalt 6 and would get frost sometimes on pieces with the color done on the outside of the glass. Never could get it to go to normal with heat. So I cannot wait to try the above method. I seem to remember something like vinegar or something else that was supposed to clean up muckyness (not devit) fairly easy and quick, but I am unsure as to what book or glass mag I read it in or what it was specifically. In regards to the sea salt as someone on another board mentioned: "dont over do it tho or you'll build up a flaky salty scaley surface.(also this process makes a huge mess if not properly prepared for it )"

Last edited by caogomi; 2011-11-05 at 1:18am.
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  #47  
Old 2011-11-05, 11:44pm
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^good info

Lisi can i send mine off to be cleaned also?
kind of you to help out though

Lyssa i'm sorry i haven't melted anymore on my 'bad mandrels' to see if it happens, i haven't been at the torch :/
but as said, since it's on the ends near the mandrels (or so i gather from the photo), and you're using piano wire, that's still suspect to me...oh and that it happened to me on those crap things someone sold me.
have you tried stainless steel mandrels at all?
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  #48  
Old 2011-11-06, 10:57am
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I was going to write a diatribe about what devit exactly is but I'm glad someone else did

Just want to add that for some reason, the annealing temp that's going around as the correct one for Effetre and similar glasses of 960F is way higher than what the manufacturer give (478 C for Effetre, which is 892 F). This means that most annealing kilns are pre-programmed with annealing cycles that start way higher over the annealing temp, at a temp where I suspect the glass can be soft enough to be able to devitrify. I'm not saying that's what's happening to you but added to the fact that Devardis kilns don't seem to be the most accurate ones, there may be something in it.

I've made some softening experiments with Effetre rods to calibrate my big fusing kiln (which I use to anneal bigger pieces) and some of the colors start softening around 500-510C (932-950F).
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  #49  
Old 2011-11-07, 2:28pm
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Anne --

I'm a bit confused. All the advice I've gotten about batch annealing schedules says to ramp up to 950/960/970 F (what people say is the standard "garage" temp) and sit there for an hour or so, but then to ramp down and soak for an hour or so at 840/850/860 F. You say Effetre should be annealed at 892 F, does that mean one shouldn't go higher than 892 F?

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Originally Posted by Anne Londez View Post
I was going to write a diatribe about what devit exactly is but I'm glad someone else did

Just want to add that for some reason, the annealing temp that's going around as the correct one for Effetre and similar glasses of 960F is way higher than what the manufacturer give (478 C for Effetre, which is 892 F). This means that most annealing kilns are pre-programmed with annealing cycles that start way higher over the annealing temp, at a temp where I suspect the glass can be soft enough to be able to devitrify. I'm not saying that's what's happening to you but added to the fact that Devardis kilns don't seem to be the most accurate ones, there may be something in it.

I've made some softening experiments with Effetre rods to calibrate my big fusing kiln (which I use to anneal bigger pieces) and some of the colors start softening around 500-510C (932-950F).
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  #50  
Old 2011-11-08, 2:49am
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Not necessarily but the annealing schedule will be different if you start at 960 F, which is the top of the annealing range, than if you start at 900 F, which is the bottom. I wish people would stop treating annealing as a kitchen recipe that everyone can spice to their own convenience. It is a sicentific process that has been very precisely documented. There isn't one specific annealing temp but a range and the annealing temp given by the manufacturer is the bottom point of that range. Where you start in that range affects the holding time and the ramping rates. I suggest Duhnam's Contemporary Lampworking as a first read. I'd suggest more specific lit but all I have is in French...

The 960 F schedule is the one that is recommended by Bullseye as optimal for their own glass. For some reason, when Americans started working with Effetre, they kept the schedule. However if you go to Murano, where they've been working with Effetre for quite some time, you'll find that they anneal around 900F. Why ? Because they know that Effetre starts softening around 960 F, which I think has a bearing in the case we are discussing here.
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  #51  
Old 2011-11-08, 11:12am
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That makes a lot of sense.

Now, I could go look this up, but I'm lazy. Isn't Bullseye a different COE than 104?

In my case, I'm batch annealing, and I've never understood why people say to go up to a hundred degrees OVER annealing temp of 104 then back down.

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Originally Posted by Anne Londez View Post
Not necessarily but the annealing schedule will be different if you start at 960 F, which is the top of the annealing range, than if you start at 900 F, which is the bottom. I wish people would stop treating annealing as a kitchen recipe that everyone can spice to their own convenience. It is a sicentific process that has been very precisely documented. There isn't one specific annealing temp but a range and the annealing temp given by the manufacturer is the bottom point of that range. Where you start in that range affects the holding time and the ramping rates. I suggest Duhnam's Contemporary Lampworking as a first read. I'd suggest more specific lit but all I have is in French...

The 960 F schedule is the one that is recommended by Bullseye as optimal for their own glass. For some reason, when Americans started working with Effetre, they kept the schedule. However if you go to Murano, where they've been working with Effetre for quite some time, you'll find that they anneal around 900F. Why ? Because they know that Effetre starts softening around 960 F, which I think has a bearing in the case we are discussing here.
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  #52  
Old 2011-11-08, 12:41pm
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Anne, you are right on there. Even Bullseye is now updating their schedule to start at 920-900 range. They did a ten year study on finished work. Longer times at lower temps are their new mantra. I'll see if I can find the link to the bulletin.
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  #53  
Old 2011-11-09, 3:03am
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Oops, I was quoting the annealing temp of Effetre from memory and I made a slight mistake. I checked the catalog yesterday and it's 470C, which is 870F... even lower than what I remembered !

And Aymee that is correct, Bullseye is 90 COE, which means that is is a stiffer glass.
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  #54  
Old 2011-11-09, 9:16am
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I knew that the "annealing" temp of Effetre is 870F - I have a step on my program that holds there for an hour - but you wouldn't want to garage at that temp, would you? I think the higher garaging temp was designed to allow you to open and close the kiln (which essentially crash cools it temporarily) without going underneath that strain point.

I have my garaging temp sent to 930, and I can easily get down to 890 if I have the door open and am arranging beads to fit more in. It seems to work for me....
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Old 2011-11-09, 11:28am
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All the batch annealing schedules I've seen say to go up to the mid 900s, hold for an hour, then ramp down to the mid 800s, but I've always wondered why. What you say makes a lot of sense so maybe for people who are batch annealing, with no opening and closing of the kiln door, the first hold doesn't need to be in the 900s. Maybe you can go up to 870 and just hold there for an hour or two, depending on the size of your beads, and then ramp down past the strain point. It would cut down my batch annealing time by an hour, that's for sure. I wouldn't have to take that one hour to ramp down from the mid 900s to the mid 800s.

Does that sound right?

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Originally Posted by Damselfly View Post
I knew that the "annealing" temp of Effetre is 870F - I have a step on my program that holds there for an hour - but you wouldn't want to garage at that temp, would you? I think the higher garaging temp was designed to allow you to open and close the kiln (which essentially crash cools it temporarily) without going underneath that strain point.

I have my garaging temp sent to 930, and I can easily get down to 890 if I have the door open and am arranging beads to fit more in. It seems to work for me....
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Old 2011-11-09, 11:49am
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Originally Posted by Lyssa View Post
It would cut down my batch annealing time by an hour, that's for sure. I wouldn't have to take that one hour to ramp down from the mid 900s to the mid 800s.

Does that sound right?

Yes and no... As mentioned above, annealing at a lower temp means that you need a longer holding time. Life's not simple

Garaging temp depends on your kiln. I usually garage around 490C but then I have a well constructed kiln that doesn't easily lose temp when the door opens.
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Old 2011-11-09, 4:48pm
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Here's the Bullseye article on Annealing that Pam mentioned.
http://www.bullseyeglass.com/methods...eye-glass.html
Also have a read on their annealing time recommendation (Technotes 07)

Also, I believe this article explain why devit occurred if some effetri colour are softening at 960F. I think your problem with those CIM colours indicate that the softening temperature for them is slightly lower then most effetri (therefore, incompatibility issue that we hear some times).
http://www.bullseyeglass.com/images/...chnotes_04.pdf

As for annealing time, how big is your bead? If you make small beads (1/2 inch thick or less) 1 hour is enough especially if you anneal them suspended on a mandrel. However larger beads will need longer.
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Last edited by nklt0; 2011-11-09 at 5:05pm. Reason: correction
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Old 2011-11-09, 5:02pm
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Only thing to reply to at this time:

Not on a HH, but I do make small beads. I just like 'em small.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nklt0 View Post
Here's the Bullseye article on Annealing that Pam mentioned.
http://www.bullseyeglass.com/methods...eye-glass.html
Also have a read on their annealing time recommendation (Technotes 07)

Also, I believe this article explain why devit occurred if some effetri colour are softening at 960F. I think your problem with those CIM colours indicate that the softening temperature for them is slightly lower then most effetri (therefore, incompatibility issue that we hear some times).
http://www.bullseyeglass.com/images/...chnotes_04.pdf

As for annealing time, how big is your bead? If you are on HH and making small beads (1/2 inch thick or less) 1 hour is enough especially if you anneal them suspended on a mandrel. However larger beads will need longer.
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Old 2011-11-09, 5:04pm
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Only thing to reply to at this time:

Not on a HH, but I do make small beads. I just like 'em small.
Sorry, you are right. HH have no relevance on this subject. I was reading another thread and got mixed up. But size of the beads is important.
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Old 2011-11-09, 5:56pm
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I took a look at them and I wanted to say thank you for the links. This really makes me want to figure out for myself what the best annealing schedule is. I feel the need to either go back to university and get a materials science degree or spend the next few years testing different annealing schedules with different glasses, combination of glasses, sizes of beads, etc.

Too many variables!!! LOL

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Sorry, you are right. HH have no relevance on this subject. I was reading another thread and got mixed up. But size of the beads is important.
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