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  #1  
Old 2010-06-30, 6:59am
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I am looking for the experiences of other Scorpion Torch users.
If you are not using a Scorpion, I am asking that you refrain
from posting.
I have a scorpion that is running on a regalia.
I am having an anoying problem with it.
I get a build up of little embers (carbon) on
the inner ring of flames (the cricket).
I only get this when both rings of flames are burning.
I have tried every combination of settings on my propane
and oxycon. I called GTT and told them about this,
they said it should not happen, & I should dial back
my regalia to 8 or 9. They thought my torch was
outrunning my oxycon, and I was having a purity
issue.
I did that. I still get embers, maybe a
few less, but still get them. I clean the torch
before every use, and the embers start after about 20-30 min of
use. I run a hot flame, for boro. I clean the torch 2 or 3 times
in a 3-4 hour torch session.
The torch that I had before this was a Lynx, and I never, ever got this
result with it.
This has been happening since I got it.
If I run the cricket part, the inner flame, alone it does not happen.
I am thinking that my regalia is not enough pressure for both flames.
I am thinking that I need another regalia ( Ugh $ ) to make
this torch run properly.
I need to know if I am alone in this, anyone else out there
with same results?
What do you run your scorpion with, and what are your results.
My best results come with regalia set at 9 and propane at 5.
Could it be that I have a scorpion with something wrong with it?
Of course it doesn't carbon up if you don't put any glass
in front of it, so if I send it to them, I don't know how they
will test it, I doubt they will sit down and make some pendants
with it.
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  #2  
Old 2010-06-30, 7:38am
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i have a scorpion with a regalia and i haven't been experiencing that problem. my propane is set at 4 and oxy at 9. i only clean my torch once a day(usally 10 +hours a day), and i it doesn't even seem like i need to , but i do anyways. how old is your regalia? when the last time you changed your filter?
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  #3  
Old 2010-06-30, 7:42am
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I am having a small build up too. I just keep brushing it off. I do not think it is O2 problems since the torch is hissing a little from the O2. I also turned the torch on for about 15 Florida Glass Dragons and we played with all the flames. Everyone was impressed by the strong flame and the wonderful sound of hissing O2.... I keep my propane at 3. I also have 2 M-20's chained together.

I love my scorpion so I just brush the crud off. I would love to know if there is something I can do different or is this crud going to hurt the torch?
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  #4  
Old 2010-06-30, 7:53am
Angie09 Angie09 is offline
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I run my Scorpion on a Regalia at 7-8 propane and 9 oxy and don't have any problems. I run a very oxydized flame for boro but cut way back on the propane. I absolutely love the Scorpion and bought it so I didn't have to buy another Regalia ($$$) and I can't imagine ever needing another one. I had a Lynx and this torch blows it away for boro.

Maybe you're torching too close to the barrel? Other than that ... I can't think of a reason it might be doing this to you. If you call Wally, he has been very helpful to me when I needed answers about the Lynx.

Good luck and happy torching.
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  #5  
Old 2010-06-30, 8:14am
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I'm running my Scorpion on an OG20 and haven't had any problems. But, what you are describing is caused by not enough oxy for how you are running your Scorpion. We all work differently and when you stated "I only get this when both rings of flames are burning," that answers the question. You have plenty of oxy for the inner ring, but not enough to power both the inner and outer rings the way you want to run them. It's simple, either cut down on the amount of outer flame you are running or buy another oxy con. A third alternative may be to cut off the inner flame while you are running the outer flame - not exactly my favorite solution, but it is there - or cut it way down.

I think any time you are using oxy concentrators you have to work within the constraints of that machine. You have to learn just how much you can get out of the torch using that concentrator without detracting from the torch.
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  #6  
Old 2010-06-30, 9:50am
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Thanks everyone for the input.
Angie - how close to the barrel is too close? Maybe I am doing that.
Pam - I think they said that you can not run the outter flame with out the
inner flame, it is bad for the torch. ( not that carbon is good )
And Pam, is an OG20 like twice the oxy of the regalia?
I think I know the answere, just don't want to face it.

I need another oxycon to power this torch the way I want to run it.
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Old 2010-06-30, 9:55am
Angie09 Angie09 is offline
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I don't run a very long flame (maybe 3/8") when VERY little propane use (lots of oxy) and then the boro only needs to be about an inch from that to melt nicely. Sometimes I work farther out cuz some rods bubble (I hate white!!!).

As for running the outer fire without the inner .... that is apparently not good for the torch per the instructions that came with it.
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  #8  
Old 2010-06-30, 9:57am
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Mary,

I have the same setup that you do. I run a Scorpion with a Regalia. I am not having any problems with carbon buildup.

What type of fuel source are you using? Propane? Natural Gas? I'm running on household pressure NG.

Perhaps you need to dial back the amount of fuel you're using? How large is your flame? Perhaps you're running a more reducing flame? Hard to troubleshoot without knowing all the minute details.

-Yee

oops....edited to add I see you said you're running propane. The only thing I can think of is that your ratio of propane to oxy is unbalanced somehow. As I said...I am running a Regalia and it's plenty enough to power both inner and outer fires.
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  #9  
Old 2010-06-30, 10:16am
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I run the OG20 at about 14, but I can tell you that I cannot rage the Scorpion with that. It's a balance. Hopefully you will find something what works for you.
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  #10  
Old 2010-06-30, 12:34pm
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Hi Mary,

I did a lot of testing on the Regalia and the Scorpion, so I hope that qualifies me to post on your thread.

First off, do not run the outerfire without the innerfire on, ever. That is bad for the torch. Very bad.

When you look at the tips of the candles you're running, are they rounded off (the yellow/white part) or do they have little points to them? If there are little points to them, cut back your propane (with the valve of your torch) a little bit.

How far away from the face of the torch are you working? I know that with boro, people do tend to work closer than with soft glass, but how close, typically, is the piece you are working on from the face of the torch? It could be possible that you are heating the face of the torch with some splashback and that could be causing the carboning.

PS And just so you know, the Lynx (like all triple mix torches) doesn't usually have the same issues with splashback that standard mix torches have (unless you run it like a standard mix without the blue valve on), so it is possible that you could be working the same exact way on the Scorpion as you used to on your Lynx but have the problem now that you never had before.

If you think it could be splashback, then try working a little further out and see if that helps.
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  #11  
Old 2010-06-30, 12:39pm
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PPS If all else fails, send your torch to me and I will test it out on some glass for you.
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  #12  
Old 2010-06-30, 1:39pm
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One more clue that it could be from flame splashback:
Quote:
Of course it doesn't carbon up if you don't put any glass
in front of it
If you run your exact setting and there is no carbon, but then you put glass in front of the torch and there is carbon, then it's most likely flame splashback.
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  #13  
Old 2010-06-30, 1:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam View Post
A third alternative may be to cut off the inner flame while you are running the outer flame - not exactly my favorite solution, but it is there - or cut it way down.

The instructions that come with the Scorpion say:

"Never run Outer Fire with the Center Fire off. The Center Fire must be running while operating the Outer Fire."
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  #14  
Old 2010-06-30, 2:08pm
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I talked to Willy and he thinks that it could be flame splashback, as well, but that there might be something else contributing to it (to make it hot enough for the carbon to stick).

If you turn on your outerfire, and leave the centerfire preset to where it was, that outerfire could take oxygen away from your centerfire, possibly starving it a little for oxygen. You can turn the oxygen just a little bit on your centerfire to get some oxygen back to it and that should help.

So, try working a little further out and see if that helps and then try opening your oxygen a little bit more on your centerfire when you turn the outerfire on.
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Old 2010-06-30, 7:49pm
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I just made 6 floral beads with just the inside lit. I had 2 M-20's on and I still got crud on the face of the torch. I never lit the outside ring. I love the torch so if I am doing something wrong I want to correct it. The torch had a strong O2 flame. That I am sure of. Plus my clear is look fine.
Just wondering if anyone had any ideas? This is a problem I have never had in the past...

I really love using this torch!
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  #16  
Old 2010-06-30, 7:52pm
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Hi Kimberly ~ I will try that tomorrow, working farther out from the torchface. I have been working about 2 inches from the face, and you are right, just where I worked the glass with the lynx. I tried all the other suggestions today, I kept my flame to 3/8 in and set the propane lower, at 3 or 4. My flame was all blue, it was rounded on the outer, but the center flame might have been spike tipped. The center flame does change when I turn on the outer ring of flames, it goes lower and loses oxy pressure. I work pendants that are as big around as a half dollar and no more than 1/2 inch thick on a 14 to 16 mm rod of clear. It would also carbon up with beads too though, it seems like some of the
silver glasses make it carbon faster that just clear. And frit, that makes it carbon up real quick. Could be the way I melt it in, with the pendant facing the flame. Splashback does sound like my problem. How far above the flame do I need to be? Would another regalia solve this? I did get the 4 stud torch, so I could connect them seperatly to the inner and outer, and I know the regalia won't be harmed by shutting the outter flame off for a bit. I like a big flame, I want glass to melt NOW! I didn't like the waiting I did today with the
smallish flames I tried. I did do better, but I still am not getting what I thought I would with this torch.
Heather~~~ I feel your pain. I love the torch, hate the embers.
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  #17  
Old 2010-06-30, 10:34pm
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I should make it clear that it's not just the flame splashing back onto the torch face, it is also the heat from the piece you are working radiating back to the face of the torch. I lump it all under splashback, but technically, it's two different things going on, the result being that the face of the torch is getting overheated and the hot metal grabs onto carbon, forming the embers.

Any time you see spikes when you are running shorter candles or working with sensitive glass, add more oxygen or take away some propane (with the valves of your torch - leave your regulator alone) until the tips round out. Some glass isn't too sensitive to the subtle difference, other glass is, but no matter what, those spikes show that there is uncombusted fuel in the flame. If you combine this with a hot torch face, you have a recipe for carboning (because hot metal grabs onto the carbon in the fuel).

If you are working a color that is not so sensitive to a fuel-rich flame (like clear boro), you can run your candles out further and have them spikier. It's o.k. if the flame is fuel-rich. If you are running your candles longer and work further from the face of the torch, you won't be overheating the face of the torch enough for it to grab the extra fuel.

Mary, I would suggest that you go ahead and set your Regalia to 10 instead of just 9 so that when you run your centerfire to where you usually like it and turn on the outerfire, you'll have a little more oxygen to add on to that centerfire (so you wont necessarily have to turn your propane down).

I think that the reason your centerfire is getting the embers when you run the outer, and not so much the outer, is that the centerfire is the part that is overheating a bit because it is starving a little for oxygen and when you have the big flame splashing back and/or a big piece throwing heat back onto the torch, that center part being the hottest part will grab more carbon and there is more carbon available for it to grab since the flame is fuel-rich at that point.

I would suggest that when you are melting something in that you move it back maybe another inch to start and see if that helps, and move back little by little until you find the sweetspot where you're still getting good heat, but it's not so close that the flame is splashing back onto the face or the radiant heat from the piece is cooking your torch face. You might even find that the flame is a little hotter further back than where you work now because the combustion could be more complete past that point.
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Old 2010-06-30, 10:49pm
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Well reading this worries me about being able to use a 5 lpm concentrator on each the inner and outer flame it sounds like to make it work right you need a larger concentrator
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Old 2010-06-30, 11:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bead crazy View Post
Well reading this worries me about being able to use a 5 lpm concentrator on each the inner and outer flame it sounds like to make it work right you need a larger concentrator
I would wye them together and run the whole torch off of both concentrators - even if that means you have to wye the inlets on a four-stud version.
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Old 2010-07-02, 5:00pm
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Could O2 purity effect the torch crud?

I get plenty of hissing from a strong O2 flame but what I don't know is the purity. The pressure is there..... The candles look fine. My clear is shiny and beautiful so I have not worried about my O2 supply.

I did demo this torch for over 15 people and we played with the different flames you can get. Everyone was very excited about the strong Oxidizing flame. But can that flame still have unpure O2 quality and still look fine?
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Old 2010-07-02, 6:28pm
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Ok ~ today I got to torch for about 5 hours. I cleaned the torch before starting.
I set my regalia back to 10, and the propane was running at 5. I got out a metal ruler,
I made damn sure I stayed at least 4 to 5 in, mostly 5inches from the torch face.
I made a turtle, they are quite large, and take me hour approx to make. Quess what?
Drum roll please.............................no embers. The only time I did get some is when
I would forget, get involved, and get close to the face of the torch. I would say,
it is splashback. But why, oh why, can I get only one inch away from the inner flame,
when it is the only one lit and not get the embers?
Kimberly ~ tell me honestly, to the best of your knowledge, would I have more
freedom with this torch, to get alittle closer when it is fully lit, if I bought another
regalia? I really do make enough money with my glass biz to get another one,
and I am thinking I might if it would run the torch better. I could wait untill you
put them on special around "Gathering" time, ( if you do that again) so what do you
think, would 2 be better than one? or no difference.
And thanks for the suggestions, you are always helpfull and I really do appreciate you!
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  #22  
Old 2010-07-02, 8:14pm
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i'm saving for a "holding tank" compressor setup. much cheaper than another regalia. the regalia makes plenty oxy for the center but i know i could use more oxy for when i open it up. it'd be nice to save some of the oxy i'm not using when i have a little flame or no flame at all.

if i'm not mistaken i got the idea from kimberly. before i got the scorpion i was considering getting another regalia. after the scorpion i've decided that a holding tank pressurized from 60 to 100 psi would probably do it just fine for me.
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Old 2010-07-03, 10:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dasi View Post
Could O2 purity effect the torch crud?

I get plenty of hissing from a strong O2 flame but what I don't know is the purity. The pressure is there..... The candles look fine. My clear is shiny and beautiful so I have not worried about my O2 supply.

I did demo this torch for over 15 people and we played with the different flames you can get. Everyone was very excited about the strong Oxidizing flame. But can that flame still have unpure O2 quality and still look fine?
Yes, a flame can be hissing and not be oxidized if the purity is bad. The hissing is just whistling - gas moving through the tubes quickly. That's all hissing indicates.

A flame from a torch being run on an oxygen concentrator with poor purity will generally look weaker in color than a normal neutral flame (given the same lighting conditions).
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Old 2010-07-04, 6:50am
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Thank you for your response. The flame looks fine to my eye and my clears and color are fine too. BUT I will look into a local place to get the O2 purity checked it possible. I called one before and they would not help me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbinkster View Post
Yes, a flame can be hissing and not be oxidized if the purity is bad. The hissing is just whistling - gas moving through the tubes quickly. That's all hissing indicates.

A flame from a torch being run on an oxygen concentrator with poor purity will generally look weaker in color than a normal neutral flame (given the same lighting conditions).
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  #25  
Old 2010-07-06, 10:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary K View Post
Ok ~ today I got to torch for about 5 hours. I cleaned the torch before starting.
I set my regalia back to 10, and the propane was running at 5. I got out a metal ruler,
I made damn sure I stayed at least 4 to 5 in, mostly 5inches from the torch face.
I made a turtle, they are quite large, and take me hour approx to make. Quess what?
Drum roll please.............................no embers. The only time I did get some is when
I would forget, get involved, and get close to the face of the torch. I would say,
it is splashback. But why, oh why, can I get only one inch away from the inner flame,
when it is the only one lit and not get the embers?
Yay! I'm glad that the mystery has been solved.

The reason(s) that you can get close to the face and not get embers on the inner fire when it is the only one lit is:

(1) Usually, when you have the outerfire on, your piece is bigger than when you only have the innerfire on. There is less heat radiating from your piece to the face plate of the torch when it is small and you are working it with the innerfire. When your piece is large enough to be working the outerfire, it is large enough to through a lot more radiant heat back onto the face of the torch. Also, the bigger the piece is, the more area it has to allow heat to splash back onto the torch face.

(2) When you turn on the outerfire, it can stave the centerfire a little bit of oxygen. If you don't bump up that centerfire oxygen just a tad, the centerfire will overheat. Hot metal grabs carbon out of the fuel and if you have a lot of unburned carbon in your fuel (which is what happens when you are starved for oxygen), there's more opportunity for the hot metal to grab something.

Quote:
Kimberly ~ tell me honestly, to the best of your knowledge, would I have more
freedom with this torch, to get alittle closer when it is fully lit, if I bought another
regalia? I really do make enough money with my glass biz to get another one,
and I am thinking I might if it would run the torch better. I could wait untill you
put them on special around "Gathering" time, ( if you do that again) so what do you
think, would 2 be better than one? or no difference.
And thanks for the suggestions, you are always helpfull and I really do appreciate you!
As for running a second Regalia, it would definitely give your Scorpion more power. It would allow you to bump up that centerfire oxygen without sacrificing the candles you have now on the outerfire. Actually, you would be able to run both fires quite a bit larger.

I think that since your problem is mostly showing up on the centerfire, I would first suggest trying to bump up the oxygen on the centerfire when the outerfire is running. You might have to cut back on your outerfire candles a little in order to do that, but not by much. See if that is something you can work with first. If that flame isn't hot enough for you, then add a second Regalia.

If you were having carbon build up across the entire torch face, I would question whether a second Regalia would be much help in terms of allowing you to work as close as you're talking about without testing it myself. But then, if you want to work closer to the ends of the candles and not just closer to the torch face, you would consider that the ends of long candles are further from the torch face than the ends of short candles. Also, having more oxygen available would allow you to run more aggressive candles with more thrust, so that would help drive off some splashback.

A holding tank is a great idea if you work mostly the innerfire and use the outerfire for bursts of big heat. If you run the outerfire a lot, then a holding tank alone won't do you much good because the tank will empty out and you would be left running straight off the concentrator. It doesn't hurt to try a holding tank, though, and the Regalia is well suited for use with one.
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Old 2010-07-13, 6:25am
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Default Pics/movies of Scorpion flmaes

Since Kimberly removed her GTT movies from YouTube (and trust me, I DO understand), I've been looking around for others with no success. If you know of any, would you mind posting the links? Thanks.
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Old 2010-07-13, 4:11pm
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I put them back up, Barb.
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Old 2010-07-13, 5:46pm
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Wow, must have been just lately. I'll definitely go look for them. THANK YOU
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Old 2010-07-13, 5:51pm
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Do you always run 40psi on oxygen and 30 psi propane? I'm running the inner fire with 2 5lpm concentrators and the outer on tanked O2. I'm wondering if I should just "Y" the oxygen lines together and run them both off tanked. I seem to get a much better flame with the outer and inner on than with just the inner.
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Last edited by blr2449; 2010-07-13 at 5:56pm. Reason: additional info
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Old 2010-07-14, 7:32am
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No, that was just to demonstrate that the Scorpion could handle high pressures.
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