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  #1  
Old 2013-07-16, 1:04pm
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Default Differences between these torches

I was looking at the likes of the GTT Mirage, Delta Mag, et al (the triple mix torches) and understand that the blue knob is to add more oxygen to the mix.

Then I looked at the Herbi Zenit torch family... And it uses air as well as oxygen and fuel of choice?

Makes me wonder what all the differences are between those two torch types. What would make the Herbi better, or just different, than the other torches?

The price tag of the Herbi makes me think that they want to be the Rolls Royce of the lampwork world but HOW? I know that tastes in torches are somewhat subjective and somewhat "how would this fit my needs and style of lampworking?"

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  #2  
Old 2013-07-17, 9:25am
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The blue valve on a GTT triple mix and the air inlet on a Herbert Arnold have two different functions.

About the blue knob on a GTT triple mix:
On most surface mix torches, there is a fuel tube either sitting in an oxygen tube or oxygen space. The fuel gas (controlled by the red knob) is injected into the oxygen stream (controlled by the green valve)and you get combustion where the gases meet.

With the triple mix torches, there is the fuel jet within the oxygen jet, but there is also an additional oxygen jet within the fuel jet. The fuel is combusted along the two planes where fuel meets oxygen. That innermost oxygen jet is controlled by the blue knob. The blue knob oxygen is there to adjust how and where you direct the flow of oxygen in the flame - and many times, this is done without adding more oxygen.

When you want to use a triple mix torch as a standard mix torch, you use mostly green and red, with just a little blue oxygen added to keep the ends of the jets from being dead zones and collecting carbon. When you use the triple mix feature, you have two planes of combustion instead of just one. This provides for a more complete combustion of the fuel. When you change the balance of how much oxygen goes to the outer oxygen (green) and how much goes to the inner (blue), you also change the shape and other characteristics of the flame. For example, less blue and more red makes the torch behave like a standard torch and gives you a wide envelop of radiant heat around the flame. More blue and less green gives more thrust and pulls that radiant heat back into the flame.

About the air inlet on a HA:
Basically, the air inlet takes air and injects it into the fuel line, thinning out the fuel. This allows for a fluffy soft cool flame. I believe the Maya torch had an air inlet on it, as well.

You can retrofit other torches to do this same thing, including triple mixes. All you're doing is injecting air into the fuel line before it enters the torch. The Carlisle Air Optimizer is an example of a ready-made product that does this. Some people build their own setup by tapping into their propane line right before it goes into the torch with a wye connector, a valve, an in-line regulator, and a line going to an air supply.

You can also get a soft fluffy cool flame without injecting air by pushing the oxygen and fluffifying the tail of the flame and working there.
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Last edited by kbinkster; 2013-07-17 at 9:28am.
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  #3  
Old 2013-07-19, 9:21am
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Boy am I glad you said that!!
I was sitting here trying to sort together that explanation. Excellent.

I believe I saw a magazine article in The Flow about adding air to a torch about 2 years ago.

I had a HA 55mm as well as a Mirage and a Kabuki. All excellent torches. My thought when getting the HA was "only one valve to open/close to get different flames". It turned out differently. Just as much or more 'fiddling' with the valves as on a GTT so the HA sat on the shelf. I finally sold it. I love the Mirage and even more the Kabuki.

A lot depends on your work and work style.

PJH
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  #4  
Old 2013-07-19, 11:37am
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Hi PJ!
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  #5  
Old 2013-07-19, 11:48am
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It's my understanding that the single knob adjustment of a HA is for rolling on or off each fire and that adjustments to the flame each fire has need to be made with keys - and this can be tricky on the old ones, I'm not sure about the new ones. HAs are generally tuned at the factory for the particular type of work you want to do (soft or hard glass, solid or hollow, etc.) and they are built for specific fuel gases (propane, hydrogen, or natural gas - you would have to pick a model based on what your fuel source will be). There is a specialty tune available from Jason Howard (whom I believe wrote that article in the Flow about adding air to the fuel). For a charge, he will take a HA and tune it to work a certain way.

With a GTT, you can adjust it yourself to work however you like and they are not fuel-gas specific (you can run hydrogen, propane, or natural gas through the same model).

On the GTT torches that have multiple fires, you can easily use a foot pedal to make switching from fire to fire quick and easy. You just preset the flames on the fires and simply turn them on and off with the pedal. And with a pedal, your hands can remain free to hold your glass and/or your tools. With the valves where they are, if you do want to make an adjustment to the flame on a particular fire, it's simple.

Here is a four stage GTT that works great with a foot pedal:

This burner is from the new line called Quadzilla. This particular one is Lynx/Phantom/Kobuki/Cobra. Other configurations will have the Viper as the outerfire.
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  #6  
Old 2013-07-19, 9:38pm
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Ooohhhh. Nice torch, that 4-fire model...

However, my needs (especially if I want to start working boro in tubing form) would be more on the 2- or 3-fire model.

Running air into propane, I've never thought you would be able to make your torch handle more like a HA in the sense of getting those softer flames you want for more delicate work or gentle preheating. So I can have basically two torches in one.

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  #7  
Old 2013-07-26, 1:14pm
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Hello back at'cha Kimberly.

Would love the new Quadzilla but it's way more fire than I'll ever use. Even the Kabuki seldom gets the outer ring light off.
Sure is purdy though.

PJ
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  #8  
Old 2013-07-29, 2:29pm
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A 4-stage torch... damn I dont even know how I would begin to use that

What are the oxy/gas consumption rates on that thing?
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Old 2013-07-31, 12:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stackmyra View Post
A 4-stage torch... damn I dont even know how I would begin to use that

What are the oxy/gas consumption rates on that thing?
The consumption rate hasn't been tested, yet, but I believe it will fall in line with the other triple mixes and given the number of jets, I would say that the oxygen consumption rate for the largest neutral flame before distortion is probably in the 90-100 CFH range. Because of the stages, you would probably end up using less oxygen than a regular Cobra.
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Old 2013-08-01, 7:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbinkster View Post
This burner is from the new line called Quadzilla. This particular one is Lynx/Phantom/Kobuki/Cobra. Other configurations will have the Viper as the outerfire.
Does GTT offer a class (or degree) on how to adjust the flame? (A rhetorical question...unless they do)
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Old 2013-08-01, 2:54pm
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There is an instructional video that comes with two-stage and larger triple mixes. They aren't difficult to operate.
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  #12  
Old 2013-08-01, 5:02pm
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Well, at least a PhD is not required to run one of these things! LOL!

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Old 2013-08-02, 4:52am
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I'm still struggling with the difference between reducing and oxidizing flames.
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  #14  
Old 2013-09-11, 3:03am
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Have thy set a price on the new quadzilla/taking orders yet?
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  #15  
Old 2013-09-11, 6:04pm
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Gtt has a you tube on how to work their torches. Pretty easy once you understand you control the flame more with the one blue know than having to manipulate the oxygen and the fuel. I just got a phantom. Love it.
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  #16  
Old 2013-09-16, 2:16pm
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Kimberley,
I was just wondering if your illustrious hubby Willy has ever told you where the idea came from to put the extra oxy tube inside the fuel tube. Did he have an epiffiny one day while mowin the lawn or taking a bath or well... whats the story on where that whole idea came from to begin with if you know.
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  #17  
Old 2013-09-17, 6:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maui Greenstone View Post
Have thy set a price on the new quadzilla/taking orders yet?
The best thing to do would be to call Wally and ask.

Quote:
Originally Posted by khan View Post
Kimberley,
I was just wondering if your illustrious hubby Willy has ever told you where the idea came from to put the extra oxy tube inside the fuel tube. Did he have an epiffiny one day while mowin the lawn or taking a bath or well... whats the story on where that whole idea came from to begin with if you know.
Thanks
Khan
It was actually Wally who had the idea. At the time, they had already built 35 prototypes of different torch designs, looking for the flame they wanted. Wally thought back on their motocross background and the idea of fuel injection and that's how it came about.
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  #18  
Old 2013-09-17, 10:33am
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Aaahhh i see.... cool..

now lets see...Wally is Willys brother??? is that right?
I cant keep up with it

hehe
Khan
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  #19  
Old 2013-09-18, 9:24am
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No No No!
Willy is Wally's brother
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Old 2013-09-18, 9:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheng076 View Post
No No No!
Willy is Wally's brother

Glad you cleared that up for us before someone got their feeling hurt....

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