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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #1  
Old 2008-12-10, 5:36pm
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jensy jensy is offline
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Default Pls Write Warnings on Tuts

O.k Im ready. I realize I am going to get alot of crap for this but here it goes.

Could the artist of the tuts please put a big warning on your promoting pages of whether or not we can make and sell these beads we just learned about.

I went on a tut buying spree this week some on Etsy and some off of websites. So no you wont be able to see who I am talking about nor will I tell you if you PM me.

I mean really I just paid for information on how to do something and now you dont want me to work at it and then sell them. Why do you think we are buying them.

Yes some of these tuts you can use different colors and make your own and some really you cannot. We are all using the same pallettes here.

How absolutly refreshing that one tut writers even says go forth and make them. That they realize this is a problem.

I think you have to decided what you want. Do you want to make alot of money selling tuts? Then if so dont guilt us out because we paid you money and we are putting out what you have taught us. Or do you want to be the artist to sell your type of beads. Please decide but you cant have it both ways.

All you have to do is write a big old warning on your page where you are promoing you tut thats says "You cannot reproduce and sell any beads you have made from this tut". Then we at least know if we want to spend the money first. No guilt trips for us then either. Then everyone is forwarned and can decide. Yes you may have a decrease in your tut sales but at least then you can make money with your beads and tuts with people that just wanted the knowledge.

I believe I am not the only one that feels this way but people on here sometimes get a little afraid to say anything. O.k let the flaming begin, I have big shoulders.


Jen
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  #2  
Old 2008-12-10, 5:38pm
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Are there tutorials that actually say you can't make and sell beads based on them??? That is CRAZY.
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  #3  
Old 2008-12-10, 5:41pm
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i'm not sure if a tutorial said that or if she made beads using someone's tutorial & they then got upset at her for trying to sell the beads she made from it.

either way, that's kind of insane.
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  #4  
Old 2008-12-10, 5:42pm
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No not those exact words Squid. But it is a big guilt trip because making these beads is their livelihood.
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  #5  
Old 2008-12-10, 5:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jensy View Post
No not those exact words Squid. But it is a big guilt trip because making these beads is their livelihood.
well, you can't have it both ways. Either you sell the technique and expect people to use it commercially or you keep it to yourself and are the only one selling those beads. Sorry - that is BS.
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  #6  
Old 2008-12-10, 5:53pm
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Yup I thinks its crap too. But to rectify that problem just write a warning before we buy.

Also want to note its nothing I have listed so dont go looking to find out. I really dont want to drag anyone's name into this. We dont need that.

The point I was trying to make was make up your mind how you want to make the money but it cant be both ways. I think alot of people are afraid to decide on their own how to handle this because next theres a thread in here about copying.

A big old warning would handle this whole situation.
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  #7  
Old 2008-12-10, 5:57pm
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So if I write exactly what the tut author said is that not giving them up?
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  #8  
Old 2008-12-10, 5:57pm
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I agree... If they're selling the tutorial, then make and sell to your heart's content!

The classes I teach, I'm showing students how to do specific designs, etc. and they are welcome to do what they will with them. Selling a tutorial is the same thing, only the instructor is "in the pages" not in the classroom.

If someone doesn't want anyone making their designs, then don't teach people how it's done! As others have said, anyone saying that to you is full of BS.

Now, how did Chihuly do that one?

Jim
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  #9  
Old 2008-12-10, 5:59pm
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you are more than welcome to make and sell the living hell out of any item I sell info on how to make. I learned blown work from lots of people, and while you may not see ornaments like mine often, they are certainly not new.

If I didnt want to have others make a certain item, I simply would keep the info to myself.

any time I teach anything I fully expect the students to make exactly what they have seen for a while, doesnt bother me a bit.

Candice
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  #10  
Old 2008-12-10, 6:28pm
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Huh????!!!

IF you want to be the only one to ever make your beads, why would you sell a tutorial showing others how to duplicate them?

If it was not stated prior to purchase that the designs could not be commercially reproduced, you bought it in good faith and should be able to sell the beads. That would be quite a racket - buy my instructions, but only I can sell the beads. Especially if you were told after they had taken your money.

That's like selling an embroidery design and not letting you stitch it out on a tote to sell. It's just not done.
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  #11  
Old 2008-12-10, 6:39pm
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I've bought tutorials for things other then glass, and many do say they cannot be made and sold. I have even bought a book that had beading designs that said it. One tut I bought said you could sell 3, but after 3 you had to write to get permission for more.

I have no idea how any of this could be policed, but you can put any limitations you want on a tutorial, it will keep the honest people from doing .

I agree with the OP, it would be nice if the wishes of the author were made known prior to purchase. It just seems the fair thing to do.
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  #12  
Old 2008-12-10, 6:41pm
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I would take the tut and put your spin on it and sell the beads anyway. Thats just me. If I take a class or pay for a tut, I might in the future make those beads and sell them.
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  #13  
Old 2008-12-10, 6:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artic^wolf View Post
I've bought tutorials for things other then glass, and many do say they cannot be made and sold. I have even bought a book that had beading designs that said it. One tut I bought said you could sell 3, but after 3 you had to write to get permission for more.

I have no idea how any of this could be policed, but you can put any limitations you want on a tutorial, it will keep the honest people from doing .

I agree with the OP, it would be nice if the wishes of the author were made known prior to purchase. It just seems the fair thing to do.
You can put anything you want on it, but I doubt seriously that it has any legal weight.
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  #14  
Old 2008-12-10, 6:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeadBlossoms View Post
If it was not stated prior to purchase that the designs could not be commercially reproduced, you bought it in good faith and should be able to sell the beads.
It happens more often than you think. I remember a seed bead class (some kind of bracelet bead weaving technique, I think) at a national event where people paid a lot to take a class, and were told at the class (not before) that you weren't allowed to reproduce the design for sale, only for personal use. It caused a big stink at the time. I've taken a class at Corning where the goal was to make super realistic bugs and fish, and only during the middle of the class was it stated that the artist didn't want us to copy him and sell them. (??)

I've never bought a tutorial that stated you couldn't reproduce the beads for sale, but it wouldn't surprise me. That's why I'm always thankful when the tutorial writer states it's ok.

If the writer genuinely doesn't want the beads in question reproduced for sale, I completely agree that it should be stated prior to purchase. Any limitation, such as the number of copies you can print, or what you can do with the beads or technique, should be written on the purchase page.
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  #15  
Old 2008-12-10, 6:49pm
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Without seeing the tutorial this is just kind of a shot in the dark, but is it possible you misinterpreted what was written? Most of the tutorials I've seen either imply go forth and make the whatever, or have some message that says more directly, please don't reproduce these verbatim. Put your own touches on them. IOW, If the tutorial says "use red stringer, make dots, now use blue stringer, make dots", don't *just* use red and blue in anything that you might sell. Sure, maybe you'll make one along the way, but the point isn't to reproduce what's in the tutorial exactly, but more to teach the method and technique.

I think if I *did* find a tutorial that said explicitly not to use the info in anything you sell I'd either do it out of spite or send back a nasty email to the tutorial author and possibly even out them.
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  #16  
Old 2008-12-10, 6:49pm
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Do we have the right to play with GLASS any longer?

OOOPS.........

???
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  #17  
Old 2008-12-10, 6:57pm
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I've managed to only buy tuts that have "you can sell beads made with this tutorial" comment which surprised me. It surprised me that needed to even be stated.

Maybe we need to make a list of those tutorials that don't allow that?

And I agree with Squid, I don't think they have the *legal* right to limit how you use their techniques that were taught you.
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  #18  
Old 2008-12-10, 7:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by menty666 View Post
Without seeing the tutorial this is just kind of a shot in the dark, but is it possible you misinterpreted what was written? Most of the tutorials I've seen either imply go forth and make the whatever, or have some message that says more directly, please don't reproduce these verbatim. Put your own touches on them. IOW, If the tutorial says "use red stringer, make dots, now use blue stringer, make dots", don't *just* use red and blue in anything that you might sell. Sure, maybe you'll make one along the way, but the point isn't to reproduce what's in the tutorial exactly, but more to teach the method and technique.

I think if I *did* find a tutorial that said explicitly not to use the info in anything you sell I'd either do it out of spite or send back a nasty email to the tutorial author and possibly even out them.
First of all of course they dont use the exacts words. But it is a big guilt trip that making these beads is their livlihood. Thats as much as I am going to quote. I am not going to out anyone.

First of all I bought the tut to learn how to make them. You cant deviate that much from what tut I bought as to making them and it even goes to color as well.

My whole point is just put a big warning that you dont want people selling beads from that tut on the promo page. Then the people will decide what they want to do. If nothing is on the promo page its fair game . You cannot have it both ways. Writing a little guilt trip is just a whole head game ooh should I should I not.

Its simple just write a warning thats all. The writers are wanting protect from getting ripped off well give it to the consumers as well.

Jen
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  #19  
Old 2008-12-10, 7:14pm
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Ok, I cannot answer for other people, only for myself.

For my OWN tutorials that I wrote, I had every expectation of people going out and making beads from them and selling them. I was ready for that to happen or I wouldn't have written the tutorials.

However, as a buyer, I would not be surprised to find teachers who don't want me making exact duplicates of an item I purchased a pattern/tutorial to make. You are meant to take the skills and technical knowledge you learn from the tutorial and apply the techniques themselves to your own designs.

Say it is a wire wrap cross pendant tutorial. I'm using this as an example because that is one on my list to purchase. It is a cross with fine fine gauge wire wrapped around and around, it combines herringbone weave and beads. I have no idea how to incorporate those beads...that is what I want to learn from the tutorial. I will make a few of the crosses, the original tutorial design...then I am meant to take my newfound ability of adding beads, herringbone weave and that fine gauge wire and come up with my own designs. I don't see how this is horribly unreasonable and is still relevant for lampwork tutorials too.

Now, I do agree that if someone feels this way, they should say so up front. It should not only be included IN the tutorial itself, but in the promotional information as well so that the buyers know in advance what they are purchasing.

If I were wanting to apply this mentality to my Birds Tutorial (which I don't)...the techniques you are learning from my lessons are how to add different styles of wings in different manners, how to make proper connections in glass that are stable and have integrity. How to strike reduction glass....among lots of other things. I would be able to say, please make these birds for personal use to learn the techniques and skills...then apply your new skills to your own designs. For instance, I demo a chickadee in the tutorial. The same skill set used to make that chickadee could be used to make a goldfinch or nuthatch or lots of other types of birds that aren't in the tutorial. Take what I taught you and make your own birds.

I can understand why someone would want this. I personally don't...but I can say I would surely want to know it in advance!

I have no intention or interest in spending time guard-dogging my stuff. If someone makes better birds than me, they deserve to make good money on them...if they can't make better birds than me then I have nothing to worry about. It is a non issue.

~~Mary
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  #20  
Old 2008-12-10, 7:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artic^wolf View Post
I have no idea how any of this could be policed, but you can put any limitations you want on a tutorial, it will keep the honest people from doing .

I agree with the OP, it would be nice if the wishes of the author were made known prior to purchase. It just seems the fair thing to do.
Maybe, maybe not. I will never "duplicate" a bead from a tutorial - because that would bore me. I also happen to believe I'm one of the more honest rule following people out there, the one who follows the intention. Don't know how to say it so hopefully you get the idea.

That said, if that isn't stated before I buy the non-refundable tutorial, I'd feel a huge desire to say "F'you".

For two reasons. One is I do think the tutorial seller is expecting to have it both ways (the butter and money to buy the butter) and that's not fair.

The second is that I feel like it's changing the rules after the fact, and when rules are changed after the fact I don't feel that they have as much weight.

I'd never, ever buy a tutorial where someone says I can't use what I learned in their tutorials. Finding out that I'm not allowed to after the fact is like you buying a bracelet from me, and *then* me telling you when and how long you're allowed to wear it. Or the fact that sometimes we develop our own techniques that are very similar to others, and then where would I be? Would I have to defend my use of a technique that I developed myself?

Anyway, that is so a headache that I don't want, I wouldn't even begin the discussion (eg won't buy the tutorial)
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  #21  
Old 2008-12-10, 7:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
I have no intention or interest in spending time guard-dogging my stuff. If someone makes better birds than me, they deserve to make good money on them...if they can't make better birds than me then I have nothing to worry about. It is a non issue.

~~Mary

I knew there was a reason I liked you!

And your bird tutorial sounds awesome...
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  #22  
Old 2008-12-10, 7:25pm
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I bought a tut about a year ago that did not include the ability to print it out. The pdf was actually security-blocked so that printing was not possible! (for the average schmo, that is)

It was annoying more than anything. I wanted it as a take-along project & didn't want to take my whole 'puter along.

When I offered to help write up tut's for a friend for her classes she said, "I'm not doing anything new here, nothing that hasn't been done before."

(Don't know where I'm going with this, haven't been well today..)

~Rachelle
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  #23  
Old 2008-12-10, 7:26pm
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This topic has been discussed. Here is a link to an old thread if you are interested.

Start on post #86, read through to perhaps post #100 and beyond?
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...t=98221&page=3
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  #24  
Old 2008-12-10, 9:03pm
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I've never bought a tutorial with the intention of reproducing a bead design exactly, en masse for profit. However, there's a lot of discussion and no firm answers between what constitutes a technique and what constitutes the "design" in a lot of cases. And to be honest, I don't want to have to parse every decision to be worried if I've made enough changes.

For example, Mary brought up her bird tut. So thank goodness she doesn't have those requirements on it, because it'd be annoying to think I couldn't do a chickadee if I wanted, because that's demoed the tutorial. Or that I'd have to avoid the colors she used because it's too similar.

In most cases, I think the goal of purchasing the tutorials is to use the technique in new and innovative ways. For the most part, we all want to be original and show our creativity. It's the "Don't Do This" that stifles my creativity and makes it more difficult for me, because I worry too much about what I am doing. I'd rather not have that shadow hanging over my head.
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  #25  
Old 2008-12-10, 9:27pm
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This is a very common practice in embroidery software (generally expensive) or craft/ fabric patterns. Generally stated upfront - you can use these patterns for personal use only, not to sell. Some state that the designs can be reproduced to create sale items.

I can't say that I see a lot of difference from some tutorials and embroidery software. One specific item, not for sale. Yes, you learn something from it, but if you can't alter what you learned to your own specific design, then you are sol.

This is an important point, Jensy, I'm glad you addressed it.
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  #26  
Old 2008-12-10, 9:37pm
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One tutorial I have makes statements that discourage the reproduction and selling of the particular beads. So I don't think Jen is misinterpreting.

Beth
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  #27  
Old 2008-12-10, 11:03pm
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Here's my nickels worth on this. Flame my shaggy ass if you feel
the need to .

1) If you buy the tutorial, then you have the right to make and
sell the item you are learning. Would you spend money for Law School
and then be told you couldn't practice? Would a doctor learn to use
an x-ray machine, and then be told that he couldn't take x-rays
for patients? I don't think so.

2) If you write the tutorial, and accept money for it, you are essentially
giving up your right (whatever right you might possess) to that particular
design/technique. (note: NOT to the actual tutorial. People have no right
to copy or share the actual physical tutorial itself). To assume that someone
will buy the tutorial and not make the item to sell is both ridiculous and
will guarantee you an ulcer as you try and chase 1 gazillion people all
over the internet. You are an artist, and when everyone is making "your"
bead, that shouldn't matter. You should be on to the next best thing and
"your" next bead.

NOW,

3) That said, if you DO buy the tutorial, then - as a TRUE artist, it is
expected that you will put your own twist on the design. Example: If
one day Kimberly comes out with a tutorial on Seahorses, and I buy
it, then I should make seahorses until I get the gist of it.
Then I should take those techniques and make something different
(say, a lionfish, or a different breed of seahorse).
That's what makes you an artist, learning a technique, and then
putting your own personal spin on it. Making it your own.
Otherwise, you're just a copycat .


...and then we make fun of you and call you names.....
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  #28  
Old 2008-12-11, 1:27am
Deborah Deborah is offline
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My thought is that when I buy a tutorial, I can use the information as I see fit, barring copying and selling the actual tutorial. I purchased the information and I intend to use what I learned. (it doesn't always work out that way...lol)

Everyone learns differently, whether the community approves or not. For some, trying to replicate a bead in a tutorial reveals things the glass worker might not have stumbled upon on their own at that particular moment. It's the process they're learning from. Copying a bead (or whatever) is how they learn. Later, this may evolve to them creating on their own - and that's a great thing. Not everyone is an artist....some folks just find comfort in creating. It's all good.

As for the guilty tone in a disclaimer, I would just blow it off as humans being goofy. Really.
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  #29  
Old 2008-12-11, 3:09am
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Kevan Kevan is offline
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Location: In a box of paints
Posts: 25,088
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karen Hardy View Post
Here's my nickels worth on this. Flame my shaggy ass if you feel
the need to .

1) If you buy the tutorial, then you have the right to make and
sell the item you are learning. Would you spend money for Law School
and then be told you couldn't practice? Would a doctor learn to use
an x-ray machine, and then be told that he couldn't take x-rays
for patients? I don't think so.

2) If you write the tutorial, and accept money for it, you are essentially
giving up your right (whatever right you might possess) to that particular
design/technique. (note: NOT to the actual tutorial. People have no right
to copy or share the actual physical tutorial itself). To assume that someone
will buy the tutorial and not make the item to sell is both ridiculous and
will guarantee you an ulcer as you try and chase 1 gazillion people all
over the internet. You are an artist, and when everyone is making "your"
bead, that shouldn't matter. You should be on to the next best thing and
"your" next bead.

NOW,

3) That said, if you DO buy the tutorial, then - as a TRUE artist, it is
expected that you will put your own twist on the design. Example: If
one day Kimberly comes out with a tutorial on Seahorses, and I buy
it, then I should make seahorses until I get the gist of it.
Then I should take those techniques and make something different
(say, a lionfish, or a different breed of seahorse).
That's what makes you an artist, learning a technique, and then
putting your own personal spin on it. Making it your own.
Otherwise, you're just a copycat .


...and then we make fun of you and call you names.....

Lots of people aren't "true artists" as you put it. I think lots of people don't really have a creative streak or whatever one wants to call it. They just want to make something pretty and sell it for a little money and that's all they need to feel good about what they do. There's nothing wrong with that.

It's like the Mighty Brush painter guy on tv. Lots of people just used and still use, that technique to make paintings that look just like his. Their families think they are nice and maybe the sell a couple to people they work with or whatever. It makes them happy and that's fine.

Then there are people who learn some technique and think "hey, I could do this with that and I wonder what would happen if I did it with this glass instead?" It would never make them happy to just reproduce someone else's bead design. Or not for long, anyway.
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  #30  
Old 2008-12-11, 4:25am
Alison D Alison D is offline
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Posts: 475
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If you weren't warned up front, and the seller won't refund your money, then use the info anyway you see fit. It is disreputable not to make the usage parameters clear before the sale. Since the person did not and you are out of pocket don't feel quilty for anything you do with the knowledge you paid for.

I can't believe anyone would be so lame.

Good luck with the crusade. Definately a fight that needs to be won as the quantity of tuts is going through the roof.

Alison
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